1) The teenagers should get top billing in the credits. 2) The main characters and main enemies should both be teens. 3) There should be a high school scene in the movie (no?) 4) Strength of other plots... Does the movie focus around one character or is it a combination of ideas? Example: While I am convinced Jennifer Grey's part never could have happened and Ferris would have still been a good movie. In better off dead you needed to know Ricky was a loser to feel for Monique. 5) Strength of soundtrack. Are there songs that you got just because of that movie? Is the 90% of it amazing? Without looking now can you name 5 songs? Does it even have 5 good songs? I will always argue this is the true downfall of the Breakfast Club. 6) Does it make people cooler if they have seen it? Or are they not cool because they haven't? Is it truly a crime if they haven't? 7) Finally is there a moral to the end or good vs evil battle of sorts? I would argue a tongue in cheek battle doesn't count. But what is worth more: realization of greatness or victory? 8) Is it jus a movie or are you attached to it because it makes you remember things you or Someone you know did? 9)Is it a genre piece and is the genre the foundation of the movie?
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[ 12. January 2011, 06:38: Message edited by: Devolution ]
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1)Obviously, all the main characters are teens. The best part is that they were all relatively unknown. 2) There really is no "Bad Guy" just a lot of confusion at a party. Which "kind of" takes away from the movie, but it does get bonus points for being unique. 3) The whole beginning and the dance is at the high school. Any dance taking place at the high school makes it more legit. A la Grease. 4) Sam vs her parents, Jake vs Caroline, Sam vs her Sister, and The Geeks vs the cool kids are just some of the sub plots. The movie does a great job in keeping the watcher up to date with everything that they all are doing. 5)In my opinion, easily the best soundtrack of all time, the biggest reason was that they just picked good songs that people knew or could find and the randomness is because it was random. There are many songs that you can still hear on the radio and they only mean to the people on this board "Sixteen Candles" (See footnote at the end) 6) All teens of every generation should see this movie because of the fact that it is timeless. There isn't a high school kid that I have taught that hasn't been in the predicament like when Sam goes to the coat room to talk to Jake and freezes. It's real and honest. 7) It's a happy ending and the moral is clear but not exactly true. The quiet girl rarely gets the dreamboat. 8) Was answered in 6, but yes, I can relate to this movie all the time. 9) It happened in the 80's and was made for teens. The soundtrack was for teens, the kids were teens, and teens love it today. The biggest thing is that some movies are made for everyone (Back to the Future). This was made for teens to associate with and love.
Footnote- While Can't Hardly Wait I consider to be the best teen movies of the 90's, I think that its soundtrack was entirely too thought out. Paradise City - Planned. Mandy - Planned. Too many songs that said "Can be placed in party scene". Romeo and Juliet by Dire Straits in that movie... that's good song placement.
Here we go...
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Application of Rules: Some Kind Of Wonderful (what else!!)
1) The teenagers should get top billing in the credits.
Check. Stolz, Masterson, Thompson, Sheffer, and Koteas all get billing before any non-teenager.
2) The main characters and main enemies should both be teens.
Check. Keith/Watts/AJ/Duncan vs Hardy Jenns.
3) There should be a high school scene in the movie (no?)
Check. The High School location is an essential plot development piece.
4) Strength of other plots... Does the movie focus around one character or is it a combination of ideas?
Check. There are a few strands, but they all revolve around the central plot - Breaking Teen Stereotypes
5) Strength of soundtrack. Are there songs that you got just because of that movie? Is the 90% of it amazing? Without looking now can you name 5 songs? Does it even have 5 good songs?
Check: Say Anything, Brilliant Mind, Cry Like This, The Shyest Time, Amanda Jones, I Can't Help (Falling In Love), I Go Crazy, She Loves Me, The Hardest Walk, Turn To The Sky. All from memory.
6) Does it make people cooler if they have seen it? Or are they not cool because they haven't? Is it truly a crime if they haven't?
Check. It's not a mainstream flick, and so knowing it indicates that you're not just a badge follower, you understand the genre and go deeper than the well-known industry standards.
7) Finally is there a moral to the end or good vs evil battle of sorts? I would argue a tongue in cheek battle doesn't count. But what is worth more: realization of greatness or victory?
Check. Loads of morals here, including 'you can be strong enough to stand on your own', 'true love wins out', 'money and influence alone can't make you popular for ever', and of course, 'in 1987, women can be whatever they want to be - even a plumber'...
8) Is it just a movie or are you attached to it because it makes you remember things you or Someone you know did?
Check. I completely associate with the characters, the story, and the attitudes - dealt with them on differing levels when I was a kid.
9)Is it a genre piece and is the genre the foundation of the movie?
Check. The foundation genre is teen high school / relationships. No vampires, no time travelling, no martial arts, no peripheral distractions. Just life.
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1) Teens are the movie... No doubt. But Annie Potts is older, as is Andrew Dice Clay, still it's high school. 2) Same with the enemies. All teens. So far so good. 3) We are three for three, there is high school going on in the movie, so we have some sort of fulfillment here. 4) McCarthy's plot is needed, and without Duckie is important because a lot of movies have the "Duckie" Character. Are there subplots? Or is it more just the 2? I don't know. 5) People are going to argue with me. This soundtrack has plenty of good songs, I do own it, but besides "Pretty in Pink" and "If you leave" I don't think that this is a fantastic soundtrack, I rarely play it, maybe because the movie as a whole doesn't do it for me... Continuing. 6) You are cooler if you have seen it, but it really gets overshadowed by The Breakfast Club and Sixteen Candles. But I don't judge people if they haven't seen it. 7) I got it, I don't like this movie as much because its ending is the lamer version of Some Kind of Wonderful's. I like the fact that Amanda Jones decides to be alone MORE than the fact that Duckie finds the girl at the prom. I think the biggest flaw is that it is a weaker movie for Molly Ringwald. Could that be it? I don't know, it's just not as good. 8) I don't associate with Molly's Character, most people on here don't. Again, like 16 candles, the quiet girl doesn't get the hot guy. The quiet girl SETTLES for Duckie. It's not Hollywood, but it's true. 9) I don't know, it's an 80's movie for teens, but it's more an 80's movie for quiet girls that hope that the Andrew McCarthy in their homeroom will fall for them. Not going to happen.
It's not in the top ten. I can't let it be. Hughes or not. It's soundtrack is a 6.5, and the supporting cast is good but the story just misses somewhere.
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That's what I'm talking about Paul. I have played Some Kind of Wonderful for teens now, they take to it. I think that's just as important as all of the rules.
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Not up for debate to me! I can see someone picking one over the other, but if one is 'qualified' to stay - they both are!
quote:4) McCarthy's plot is needed, and without Duckie is important because a lot of movies have the "Duckie" Character. Are there subplots? Or is it more just the 2? I don't know.
Andie's relationship with her father, and her dealings with Spader's girlfriend are subplots.
quote:5) People are going to argue with me. This soundtrack has plenty of good songs, I do own it, but besides "Pretty in Pink" and "If you leave" I don't think that this is a fantastic soundtrack, I rarely play it, maybe because the movie as a whole doesn't do it for me... Continuing.
Nnnnng! 'Pretty in Pink', 'If You Leave', 'Thieves Like Us', 'Elegia' (not on the album), 'Wouldn't it be Good', 'Please Please Please Let Me Get What I want', 'Left of Center', 'Round Round'. It's got some cracking stuff on it!
quote:6) You are cooler if you have seen it, but it really gets overshadowed by The Breakfast Club and Sixteen Candles. But I don't judge people if they haven't seen it.
I agree, but BC is more dramatic and SC is funnier. Therefore both seem 'cooler'. By the way... I think I've said this elsewhere... '16 Candles' popularity has risen post 80's. It was one that people seemed to 'rediscover' because the non 80's fanatics had either not seen it or forgotten it. PiP may have lost points over the years... but it was never really forgotten. Few 80's children ever came to the Rewind and said "I've never heard of that one". With SC a significant number of them did. Just sayin'.
quote:7) I got it, I don't like this movie as much because its ending is the lamer version of Some Kind of Wonderful's. I like the fact that Amanda Jones decides to be alone MORE than the fact that Duckie finds the girl at the prom. I think the biggest flaw is that it is a weaker movie for Molly Ringwald. Could that be it? I don't know, it's just not as good.
Molly Ringwald herself seems much less likable in PiP than SC, but then she's playing a petulant teenage girl, so maybe she shouldn't be too likable. As to whether or not it's as good... opinion... all opinion.
quote:8) I don't associate with Molly's Character, most people on here don't. Again, like 16 candles, the quiet girl doesn't get the hot guy. The quiet girl SETTLES for Duckie. It's not Hollywood, but it's true.
No, the quiet girl finds another guy; Duckie stays single or finds another girl - that's the truth. Reality would mean Molly gets jerked around by Andrew, cries on Jon's shoulder, and then repeats the process with a different guy. Duckie should get nothing.
quote:9) I don't know, it's an 80's movie for teens, but it's more an 80's movie for quiet girls that hope that the Andrew McCarthy in their homeroom will fall for them. Not going to happen.
I disagree about that. It's as much an 80's movie for teens as SKoW. It's an 80's movie for teens period. Whether or not you feel you fit the target group, or whether the plot is highly plausible or not doesn't change that.
quote:It's not in the top ten. I can't let it be. Hughes or not. It's soundtrack is a 6.5, and the supporting cast is good but the story just misses somewhere.
You top ten maybe, but nothing in your list of rules would be keeping it out - just personal preference. It's in mine.
And as for the soundtrack being 6.5...
Psychedelic Furs OMD New Order INXS The Smiths Echo and the Bunnymen Suzanne Vega
If a good song from each of those artists combined doesn't merit an 8 or above automatically, I don't know what's going on in the world.
quote:That's what I'm talking about Paul. I have played Some Kind of Wonderful for teens now, they take to it. I think that's just as important as all of the rules.
What do they think of Pretty in Pink?
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To retort briefly about the soundtrack, as I do own both of them the lineup of artists doesn't give it the 6.5, it's the songs chosen. I've been in this game too long to try to convince someone to change opinions that happens to have sentimental attachment to a movie. The point I'm making is that the soundtrack while good doesn't hold up against other movies. It's the songs selected not the 8.8 artist choice.
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[ 12. January 2011, 14:44: Message edited by: Devolution ]
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While Spader does make an excellent bad guy (one of the best) including both in the top ten for me couldn't happen, so while my top ten would have Some Kind of Wonderful, others might not.
As a high school teacher I see the dynamic of students and relationships all the time, my point is that the quiet girl usually stays quiet, the popular kid RARELY goes after the quiet girl. In reality, it would take Molly to stalk McCarthy for him to even give her the time of day, even then.
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1) All the main characters are teens but the dean and the janitor. They all get top billing. 2) The main enemy is Vernon, He's an iconic figure as he's been in so many movies, mostly as a bad guy, but overall, whenever I picture a jerk in charge, I picture him. 3)The whole movie is in the school. 4)If the plot is watching kids from different groups try to get along with each other, then I don't know what the subplots are? Bender and Claire? It all kind of just an evolution. The subplot to me is the exposure of Vernon as insecure. 5)I'm about to make a bold and crazy point. Besides "We are not alone" and "Don't you forget about me" The Breakfast Club soundtrack might be the worst teen soundtrack of all time, I don't count closing songs, So I don't consider "Don't you for get about me" in the movie. The more I listen to the soundtrack, the more I find myself thinking, "How horrible is this?" It's just not great, It's not even good. Uncle Buck's soundtrack is better. I'm sorry, you might think I'm nuts, but put all of Hughes soundtracks next to each other, this is EASILY the worst. 6) Now that I'm done with that, everyone has seen this movie, or has seen parts of this movie. It's one of the few movies that has been in the culture since it has come out. That being said, you are NOT cool if you haven't seen it. (By the time you are a teenager) 7) The moral by itself is the reason that this is a top ten movie. The end of the movie is so memorable, so distinct, that is the reason why it is, in my opinion, the grandfather of the genre, or at least on the Mount Rushmore. 8) My association comes from the teacher aspect, not the student. 9) This was answered in 7. It is the genre.
OK, my overall evaluation puts this in the top ten purely based on the actors, the conversation, the script, and the shift in mood of the movie. Make no mistake, the soundtrack is rotten, so while it is in my top ten for all the reasons above, and I said it would be on my Rushmore, I want my 15 dollars back from the soundtrack that I bought years ago, I'll spent 99 cents on Itunes for We are not alone.
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quote:To retort briefly about the soundtrack, as I do own both of them the lineup of artists doesn't give it the 6.5, it's the songs chosen. I've been in this game too long to try to convince someone to change opinions that happens to have sentimental attachment to a movie. The point I'm making is that the soundtrack while good doesn't hold up against other movies. It's the songs selected not the 8.8 artist choice.
Glad to see the artists rate higher! But it isn't about sentimental attachment to a movie; I saw PiP when it came out and I saw SKoW when it came out. If anything, the fact that SKoW has songs that are seldom heard elsewhere makes the soundtrack more of a nostalgia trip for me when I hear it - takes me right back. No, this is me trying to be objective. You say it's less the artists than the choice of their songs, so I give you:
'Pretty in Pink' 'If You Leave' 'Thieves Like Us' / 'Elegia' 'Wouldn't it be Good' 'Left of Center' 'Please Please Please Let Me Get What I Want'
Each of those songs are good, and stand as high as anything else in the respective artists catalogs. The movie aside; I like those songs. And I'm fairly sure that other people did / do too. This is without even mentioning 'Try a Little Tenderness' and 'Cherish' (not on the album, but prominent in the film).
So here's a 'pro' and a 'con' for both PiP and SKoW soundtracks:
PiP:
Pro: It has great artists doing some great songs. Con: Using already highly regarded artists music is something of a cheat.
SKoW:
Pro: There are some great little-heard songs for the listener to discover. Con: Without the soundtrack, would anyone know or care about most of the artists? ('Lick the Tins'?)
I can say one thing with some certainty: Without PiP most of the artists on the soundtrack would be well-known and well regarded. MANY people would own albums by them. But for SKoW - without the soundtrack half the artists wouldn't be known even by most 80's enthusiasts. Food for thought.
quote:As a high school teacher I see the dynamic of students and relationships all the time, my point is that the quiet girl usually stays quiet, the popular kid RARELY goes after the quiet girl. In reality, it would take Molly to stalk McCarthy for him to even give her the time of day, even then.
Well then you should also know that a pretty girl - regardless of whether she's quiet - never goes unnoticed. That's always been true. It's also true that someone like Watts - who looks that good and stylish, would be dripping in male attention, and she would not have to struggle to get Keith - with teenage hormones present and correct - to recognise her as both a woman and as possible relationship material.
So, what you're doing is cherry-picking 'plausibility' to suit yourself. I agree with you that PiP's ending is an unlikely fairytale (even though it is entirely believable that a wealthy guy would date a poor girl at highschool up to and including the prom - he just wouldn't stay with her). But it's no more unlikely than Amanda Jones dating Hardy Jenns, is it? It's no more unlikely than Watts being kept on the fringes because she dresses slightly masculine, has short hair and plays the drums, is it? I won't even mention the handsome and artistic Keith, who for some reason is also supposed to be the guy that just 'didn't fit in'.
My point is that both films require suspension of disbelief, and both films would play out very differently in real life.
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Just adding: I agree about the BC soundtrack, it's the weakest of all the Hughes teen movie soundtracks.
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quote:I don't know where or when you went to high school, but in NYC, Jones always goes out with Jenns, popular people still fulfill that stereotype.
Amanda was an attractive, soft spoken (and insecure), pretty, poor girl. Andie was more or less the same (more aggressive and more overtly 'individual'). That was my point. If you think Jones and Jenns is ok, then you must think Andie and Blane is ok too (you didn't seem to). Because both girls are attractive, poor and dating a rich 'cool' guy.
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Poor is never as important as pretty. Not in the movies anyway, or actually in real life. But in terms of teen attraction Lea Thompson and Molly Ringwald aren't in the same category.
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Amanda Jones may well have been poor, she was undoubtably pretty, but the whole point about her was that she'd abandoned that and ran with her rich, popular 'friends', and became even more popular as Hardy Jenn's girlfriend. Her story was how she broke out of that and became more true to herself.
Andie never made that jump into the 'rich kids' circle until the end of the movie. So she wouldn't have been 'popular' with them. Her story is about how to break the class / dollar barrier and get to run with the wealthy boy.
And Devo gets a big +1 for his last post - There really is no contest in the pretty stakes between Thompson and Ringwald. Weirdly, Ringwald was at her most attractive in Spacehunter, as she really suited that pixie look...
Saying "If you think Jones and Jenns is ok, then you must think Andie and Blane is ok too" doesn't really work, because the two characters don't really stand up to comparison.
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1) OK, Anthony Michael Hall and his own version of Andrew Ridgely. Robert Downey Jr, and the bad guy from Thrashin. So far so good. 2) Oddly after all those people, Kelly LeBrock and Bill Paxton (best non female part of the movie) don't qualify. 3)Yeah, I kind of remember the high school scenes, nothing that makes it great. 4) I don't remember a scene in the movie without the boys in it. I mean subplots are weak except anything with Chet. "You're stewed, buttwad." Great. Make no bones about it though, the scene in the blues club "SHE DID WHAT????!!??" is one of the greatest ever. 5) WEAK! Not Breakfast Club bad, I mean Oingo Boingo and General Public help, but the rest of it doesn't make me think "Great soundtrack". It's the description of Spinal Tap's last album, if you get my reference. 6) If you quote the good quotes, you have my appreciation. But to put it's weak story up against the other Hughes movies. Eh. 7) The made up battle with the guy from the Hills have Eyes is dumb. The frozen grandparents is only funny once. Chet the turd.. lame. Making subpar girls fall in love with the main characters... blah city. They are tools. I'm not impressed. 8) I have limited attachment mentally to this movie. Kelly LeBrock overshadows the other two girls so much, you almost forget that they get them. 9) It's dated. Very dated because of the computers that are used. Kind of like WarGames.
To finish. You need to see this to appreciate Kelly LeBrock's Hotness, Bill Paxton's ability to be the worst brother ever, and Anthony Michael Hall and Robert Downey Jr. in their young primes. It's soundtrack isn't close to great, and not seeing it doesn't mean that you missed out.
It wouldn't make my top 30, forget about 10.
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quote:Poor is never as important as pretty. Not in the movies anyway, or actually in real life. But in terms of teen attraction Lea Thompson and Molly Ringwald aren't in the same category.
Taste. She was good enough for Jake Ryan in SC, good enough for John Bender in BC, and we have no issue with that. I can completely believe that both Spader and McCarthy would find her attractive enough to cross a social boundary. Molly is pretty enough.
Is "teen attraction" a euphemism for sex appeal? Because I can see that Thompson is more overtly sexy, but whether that is what attracts you (for Scheffer's character I can see it is) is down to the individual. McCarthy is supposed to be 'sensitive', so he's drawn to the artistic type of pretty girl.
In my honest opinion, and it's the same one I had when I was younger; Molly is more attractive (to me) than Thompson, and I find Mary-Stuart more attractive than either.
quote:Saying "If you think Jones and Jenns is ok, then you must think Andie and Blane is ok too" doesn't really work, because the two characters don't really stand up to comparison.
No, Devo's point was clear, and it was about the situation; poor quiet girl doesn't get rich guy. I pointed out that if the poor girl can convincingly be with the rich guy in SKoW, then the principle alone doesn't stand. Jenns is shallow, so we buy that he dates Amanda for her looks, but Blane is not a jock, nor is he shallow, so why can't we buy that he likes the pretty 'indie' girl?
I still think it's cherry-picking. I'm saying I can accept both because they're both equally plausible / implausible. You seem to be saying one is more real than the other. I don't accept that at all. If we're talking 'plausibility', then I'll reiterate; Andie not being romantically interested in her 'oddball' friend in PiP is a lot more realistic than Keith not having romantic interest in his attractive, intelligent, loyal friend in SKoW. So if you point to PiP and say; "Blane / Andie isn't real life", I will point to PiP and say, "But Duckie and Andie *is* real life - more so than Watts and Keith". If you then say , "Ah, but it does happen", then I will point back to PiP and say "So does that". Cherry-picking.
I know you won't want to agree with that. But keep in mind; I love both movies, yet I'm perfectly willing to criticise / praise both movies. All I'm seeing here is criticism of PiP and praise for SKoW (which may just be the way the thread has accidentally gone).
Paul, I know you love SKoW, Devo, you clearly like it a lot too (and prefer it to PiP). But out of curiosity, and in the interest of balance; If you had to, what are the criticisms each of you would make about SKoW? They don't have to be big, even the teeny-tinest quibbles. But I'd be interested to hear them.
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I don't look at it in the same light now. Not in my top ten but in my top 20.
Not in my top 20 for what I think about it now but how it affected me as a kid.
I was about 10 when I first saw the movie. When I was that age I thought it was fantastic.
I guess though when you are ten and first starting to think about girls you actually think that making a girl with a computer, a doll, and cut outs from magazines is possible.
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